I don't really use the phrase "internet marketer" anymore, I just tell people I "build websites" which they seem to understand a lot more. Any mention of blogging or affiliate marketing usually draws pretty blank stares.
Brad,my Douchebagometer hits the limit when i see the phrase "this is for newbies and advanced marketers,it's for everyone.." Yuck...I think the thing that really grips my sh*t is how most "sales copy" is intentionally created to make the highest number of sales to whomever....such as convincing the desperate newb he needs that $2000 course on simple seo....as opposed to creating copy with the intent of matching your potential buyer's needs with persuasive yet ultimately accurate copy...that's copy that accurately describes your product(for the db's out there...)..it's a question of integrity and having the mindset of how much value can you deliver,as opposed to the Douchebag attitude of how many sales can i make...and how can you deliver value if the buyer has purchased the product due to deceptive copy?...it's difficult over the long term to earn less than the value you deliver...as for The Secret,don't get me started...great for Douchebags to learn who to market to..( people who want to buy miracles)but pretty destructive if you think using your mind alone can bring results....
Hey Brad, Saw your interview on igniteyouressence with justin_popovicMan, this is good stuff you're sharing. i agree with your video, especially about 30 page sales letters and "secret recipes" and work!
Excellent video, informative and entertaining. While I do sell products online as most "Internet Marketers" do I would like to think that by also having sites that have free information, trying to help the people that ask for help in the forums and other things that we all seem to do from time to time the difference between the "Internet Marketer" and Internet Salesman" would be eaiser to see. I also was pleased to see someone noticed the difference between the two.
Also I think that "Online Business Support" or "Product Creation Specialist" are among several good names that could be used in place of the "Internet Marketer" label.
yeah, i agree with you regarding the "thumbfist" gesturing technique. i don't know if it's suppose to effect one on a "subconcious" level but it just distracts me from what the speaker is saying at that moment. sorta like when someone is talking to you and you see green vegetation stuck on his/her teeth.
alex alaska p
I'm not sure changing to online marketer, or web marketer will help, it's a synonym and people are not that stupid. I like the idea of using the word modern, as it insinuates it is with whatever the latest trend or type of marketing is what you do. Modern marketer, modern marketing professional (MMP) customer engagement moderniser, modern focus marketing, customer engagement consultant,
its like a car sales people, we aren't the same people from 20 years ago screwing everyone. but the name is the name and people treat you like it any ways, so if the name has a bad wrap then i agree change it.
You could start a routine with this...You might be an Internet Marketing Docuhebag if....Great rant, true. You were always above the others. Thanks for taking action with this. I unsubscribed from the chipmunk's newsletters the day after. Talk to you soon.
CPA offers have been getting a lot of heat for charging people after they try to cancel.
Great video. In my opinion the common perception of internet marketing is to get something for nothing. For every legitimate business opportunity there are probably 100 others that are scams. The entire industry is impacted in my opinion. I have seen several fake clickbank and paypal screen shots which leads me to believe this is the norm. There is so much hype with every product launch--it seems like internet marketing is the way to microwave wealth. In all honesty, who do you think are the legitmate marketing out there? I mean the ones who make money online from sources besides doing product launches of rehashed products. Who in your opinion is building value within the online community?
The "secret" thing is definitely annoying. Along with "blueprint", "complete autopilot" and the typical "X dollars in only X time!" statements, that stuff is just terribly over-used.
This actually reminds me that I wanted to make a video on thi subject a while ago, but somehow I forgot about it again. Part of the problem is simply that this stuff works. If I'm selling a legitimate SEO training system with reasonable claims on the sales-page and the guy next to me guarantees that he's found the ultimate, underground, secret "loophole" and can get any site ranked for any keywords etc. etc. then guess who's going to get more sales?
I suspect a lot of people turn into douchebags, chasing the dollars...
As for a replacement term for "internet marketer": I like "product creator", "information marketer" and simply "entrepreneur".
Hello from Mississauga Brad,
I found this post via your email while I was once again getting rid of the crap that was in there.
I blame myself partially because I am the one that gives my email addy out, but it is the only way I can drill down and find the few online that know what they are talking about, not just regurgitating something they heard from somewhere else, and saying it's " going to make the guru's mad" <<<<< = Classic DBery
Funny thing is that I spent all weekend drilling down and finding the real experts in SEO, and they are also angry at the DB's that have soiled their profession's name.
It is good to see people like you outing the parasites that prey on the unaware.
See you around.
Great Video. I love the response. You hit a hot topic.
I find a lot of people on the web are looking for a title to give themselves when in most cases one doesn't exist. To be fair titles are an old school way of doing business. The web changes so quickly it is tough to give something a label because it will be outdated within a week.
I agree when it comes to titles. Maybe I should not concern myself with one at all.
From now on I will be a "Kept Man" which sounds awesome BTW ;)
Awesome video Brad...I love the "Call it like it is" approach! I do that myself and I seem to catch a lot of hell even from people I "think" are my friends. I say think because you know how you're all friendly with people offline or at events and they hug you and praise you and go rah rah over your ideas? Then you make a post like this and actually tell it like it is and they go to your blog and make a whole page length post about how YOU'RE WRONG? :-)
That's happened to me a few times in my day. :-D
We've had some messages back and forth via the Warrior Forum and I think you're a solid guy Brad...you've certainly got a lot of solid ideas and practical information for the rest of us. I have to admit that I too have used douchebaggery techniques in my selling when I was getting started but I hated it and I hate it now so kudos to you for spilling the beans on it!
We have to connect offline sometime dude...you seem like a cool guy!
I am an Internet Marketer pretty much translates to I am a Douchebag = Agreed.
I've actually been looking for a new term as I don't wanna call myself an Internet Marketer although I am one.
Thanks for the video Brad. Totally agreed on your views on The Secret, funny there have been products out called The Secret of the Secret after it went on to become a massive hit and Douchebags cashing in on the opportunity. Some good, some not so good.
But yea, I'll be watching this comments section to find out the alternative term :-)
Very valuable information, thanks a lot.
Perfect video Brad - I know we have talked about this before - and you hit the nail on the head with the video.
I am a pretty cynical guy and my bullshit detector might be a bit high strung but there are certain things that destroy me and automatically turn me off an internet marketer OR a product. I will be honest though - I have probably erred sometimes and passed up on people/products that are better than their methods. A couple things that kill me (some you have mentioned:
- Thumbfist Point- Fake Looking Videos - DO NOT sit in front of a car or house you don't own LOL- Anyone who speaks like you mentioned in video- These terms: newbie, guru- Anyone who tells me "You won't believe this..." What are you going to show me...a unicorn?- Long long sales letters (these must work though since so many people use them - just not for me)- Emailing me 7 times a day - I joined your list because I liked you, don't change that :)
Great points man.
So true on the "You won't believe this..." routine.
Is it me or does the term guru sound too much like "screw you"??
haha @ screw you - I never thought of that until now....but I wont forget it anytime soon
Do you think this page is ok for selling or i shouldn't use this any more http://www.fasttracktofatlo...
That page is kinda douchey yes.
i loved this video thank you !
Brad this post was a long time coming. You and I have had this conversation off camera more times than I can remember and it was hilarious. You have definitely struck a nerve with this topic and I'm glad you took the time to get on camera and clear things up.
As someone who has studied probably 100s of Internet Marketing systems and techniques, I know as a consumer that the tactics you have described do not work on me. And I know I am not alone. In fact, the people creating these marketing messages probably also hate being marketed to in that manner.
I think you nailed it when you said that the Internet audience has graduated. People are losing patience with douchey marketers and are gravitating towards real business people who create real value and build long term relationships with their customers.
I also applaud you for owning up to the fact that you had previously branded yourself as an Internet Marketer and you are willing to admit that it was time to change. We can all tell from your video blogs that you mean what you say and you bring tremendous value to the table.
Finally, my vote for your title is definitely Product Creator. Yes you are very good at marketing but your true talent is being the "idea guy".
It's funny how I used to get by with "webmaster". Maybe like Sean said I should stop focusing on titles and just do my work. But then what do I blog about? LOL
Hey Brad, I'm new to your blog... and I like it. It's refreshing because you are clearly NOT a douchebag!
As I see it, douchebaggery in IM is perpetuated by the way that so many people learn how to be in IM. In other words, many of the key players in IM are douchebags... and they have set the standard for others to learn from.
It amazes me how many would sell their granny to make a quick buck with marketing strategies that are very much slash'n'burn where they simply don't care about burning customers. For example, there has been all manner of notable *%$* ups in recent months from some of the biggest players (like giveaway software that didn't work), but did we hear any form of apology? Any admittance that they got it wrong? Nope... just more pitches from them for our money.
Morals, ethics and general fairness are often sadly lacking in IM. So it's great that you're willing to call the BS as you see it.
A new fan,
Hello. and completely true.good news is that I have never considered your input to my growth online in the d-bag category.keep up the good work!
Internet marketing can be use for any type of business online. Whether its gardening, sports or even entertainment. The same process is applied to all aspects of marketing.
The goal is to build a business website that attract new customers by doing internet marketing /seo work.
My goal as a internet marketing consultant, is to tell people that good things comes to those who wait. The process of internet marketing and seo is a months to years process.
By saying that, when you get where you want to be, you will realize the time, sweat and tears was worth the wait.
Thanks for the post.. And best RegardsSorry for the long commit...
"TrafficColeman "Signing Off"
Brad I don't consider myself a Doosh Bag, in fact my highest priority as an online entrepreneur is to be upfront, genuine and empowering. I'm throwing a little hand gesture on my header at my site http://www.LeighSherman.com, but it's more an empowering point rather than a DooshBag thumb-fist as you call it.
Great points you bring up, I agree with it all, however.... The Secret was originated from one of the greatest books in history, it mentions no point about 'wishing', only focused intention. I agree that it can be confused as to simplistic for the uneducated mind. Like any movie it needed to engage the viewer with a few twists to the truth.
Keep up the great work!
No thumbfist point in your header so you pass :)
Leigh you have nothing to worry about in the header of your site. There are no traces of douche.
Hey Brad, you were advertising on your website for a social media manager for how long???-six months maybe? Were you really looking for one or was it just an example of douchebaggery?
Gary Vanyerchuk said it best in an interview with an internet marketer named Dean Hunt (I'm not sure what he sells) that "internet marketers are business bottom feeders". And that's what most internet marketer are--business bottom feeders. Their clients are people with a dream of their own business or to make more money. These are people who are willing to spend as little as $10 for an ebook or as high as $1000 on a course or program. People are willing to risk that kind of money because losing that kind of money does not put them in a financial bind. Most of these people have little discipline or they do not take action. Most people are like this. These are people who buy books but never read it completely, they have unwatched dvd's still sealed in plastic and they do their taxes in the last week of April. They are ones who know that smoking causes cancer and lack of exercise causes heart disease. They are the people who can't lose weight even though they all know how. We are all like this to some degree but it's the ones at the very bottom that are easy pickins.
I know what an accountant does, I know what a mechanic does but I never know what an internet marketer does.
Not all IM are the same. Some are worse than others and some are better than others. Some do offer things like dvds, training, and the ever popular e-book. By the way, how many actual pages would an ebook be if it was converted into a real book? Would you buy it?
Which reminds me, if anybody wants to know how to get more traffic to your website (or as some internet marketers call it "an avalanche of traffic", "killer methods of getting visitors", "mind blowing web traffic tips" etc.) then by all means sign up for the ebook but whatever you do, don't google web traffic tips and take action on those tips.
And good luck to Mark Lyford and his business venture, whatever it might be.
I was looking for social media help yes but I was not happy with the results of my search so I continue to manage that myself. My hope was to find someone who could help me branch out into multiple profiles for multiple products.
I will be the first to admit I have taken part in my share of douchebaggery. We all define it differently I suppose ;)
Great reply Bob
Hey Brad, Tony here. I met you in Orangeville at a Starbucks a couple of months ago (just to jog your memory). Much has happened since then, much! Well, I had to think about all this douche stuff and well, I thought it would be appropriate to include a definition of a douche bag (definitely not what people want to hear but nevertheless a reality check).
From Wikipedia, the free encycloped
A douche is a device used to introduce a stream of water into the body for medical or hygienic reasons, or the stream of water itself.
Douche usually refers to vaginal irrigation, the rinsing of the vagina, but it can also refer to the rinsing of any body cavity. A douche bag is a piece of equipment for douching—a bag for holding the fluid used in douching.
**************Believe it or not, I actually edited a lot of nasty stuff out of the Wikipedia definition***********************
Brad, just by addressing this douchebag way of making money, sets you apart.
Cudos to you man!
One thing I'm beginning to get sick of are the hypey video sales letter where the guy is showing you how wonderful his life is and how easily you can live the life too.
Also, the free report that's nothing but a big commercial for the product they're slinging.
I've learned to ignore pretty much all of the hype and I rarely buy reports anymore. What I spend my money on now are things like software that speeds up certain processes or helps me spend less on outsourcing.
Douchebaggery describes best that kind of persistently aggressive and deceitful activity that I have noticed at the overwhelming majority of the self-proclaimed "internet marketers". All to the detriment of the few that are conducting themselves in a professional and high standards manner. I think you're absolutely right Brad in trying to distance yourself from the d-bag crowd by using other terms to define your business activity and expertize. I personally like terms like "internet-based business/product developer & promoter, internet entrepreneur, business/product evangelist, etc.
I have started saying I am a publisher. That usually works pretty well. Depending on who I am talking with, I sometimes say web publisher. But that's actually what I do, publish content sites mostly,with very soft sell marketing. its not that I don't like marketing. I actually enjoy the commercials on the TV more than the shows. Its feeling scuzzy after reading a sales letter that I really don't like.
The con-artists you mention are sales people, not marketers. They are a segment of the business world who understand one thing about people - what they will buy. They are only interested in the next sale and perhaps a follow-on sale. Hence 'The Secret'. I agree that marketers need to change what they do. They need to help better understand customers and learn more about the value the customer seeks. The issue begins with building the organization around the customer - that's hard, but doable. The customer is the expert, not the marketer, certainly on the sales guy.
I like that you have separated the marketers from the pitchmen/salesmen. I never thought of it that way but you are right.Everyone reading this should go check Alan's website. Somehow I got him as a client but some days he teaches me more than I do him. His insights and processes for solving problems are amazing.
Brad, you know I am glad you started this. I can not stand the word 'secret' anymore. I totally share your opinion about Douchebaggery. I will follow up this thread. I want to see suggestions. I have a need just like you to re-label myself. I do not share your opinion about long copy though. About a month ago I dipped myself into copywriting world. The best copywriters in the world: John Carlton, Dan Kennedy, Clayton Makepeace, Drayton Bird, Bob Bly (familiar with these names?) confirm that long copy sells best. Please, remember that copywriting has nothing to do with Douchebaggery. It's pure salesmanship. If we want to sell, we need to work hard on our copy. And it has to be long. I am persuaded. Thanks again for starting this thread.
Other douchebag techniques:Shooting videos on a green screen then trying to make your background look slickMaking me opt in to read your sales letterSaying "It's not your fault that you haven't succeeded"Using terms like "push button", "lazy", "domination" or "control"The more we try to manipulate people the harder it becomes to sell legitimate offers.
You seen my videos. I left the green screen as action was more important then perfect and almost 2 million views :)
This is the first time I got something from a big name marketer (John Reese) and I am learning a lot and will share it when we meetup. Here is one thing, the knowledge is not the difference, its the system and keeping it simple that really makes t work. Dudes, pretty smart :)
"How does one stand out as the un-douche?"
Selling a legit product at a reasonable price with honest business practices and product promises. It's pretty simple, really--don't be a psychopath is rule #1.
So replying from your driveway right now is psycho? ;)
Thumbfist Point FTW!!
Great video, Brad. I know I answered no to your initial question but it's true that there is a lot of douchebaggery in the IM world. Also, I will always think of you the next time I see someone doing a thumbfist point. So, thanks for that.
How often do you see the thumbfist?
I think for me it might be different than normal people - but since I have been involved in internet marketing - it is really hard to not run into douchebags in the field.
I guess that is pretty much the case in any job though - but I bet the ratio of d-bags to non d-bags is higher in internet marketing.
That said there are a lot of great guys in the field, who do a lot for their clients and themselves. I am pretty open minded so I wouldn't just instantly hate an internet marketer...unless he claims he is a "guru".
Are we ready to shorten this down to d-bag? I like it but douche has so much more impact LOL
I can relate to this -- I have a problem with all the emails I receive, promising to sell me the silver bullet that will allow me to earn a huge income wih minimal effort. They are certainly a lot of claim out there , -- it is very difficult to know who is worth listening to, and who actually has something of value, who actually delivers on any of their promises.
Silver bullet! CLASSIC!
Great Video!!!!! :)
Internet Marketing is only a method of marketing.
I consider myself a Internet Marketer and still would since I spend a lot of my time on marketing online. However I have said that and people will be like, well everyones a Internet Marketers, does not bother me...too busy having fun to be bothered :)
Keep on truckin man!
Douchebaggery? Classic! ...and here I was thinking that the "thumbfist-point" was some sort of subconcious mind control tactic. :-)
Internet Marketer - Out
Ideas? Digital merchant, Online Product Specialist, WebVendor....weak I know....but it's a start.
I miss the old days when "webmaster" was cool enough.
Maybe 'Social Media Marketer & Product Developer' Just a thought :)
Product Developer sounds cool. Me likey :)
How about online marketer?
If its a secret, I don't buy it.If I have to kill, annihiliate, dominate, smash, destroy, murder or any other of the host of testorenone laden sale hype words, i not only do not buy, I run away from that sales letter. OTO's - click cancel; upsells - click cancel; downsells - click cancel. Price goes up if I don't buy right now - cancel. Read the entire frickin' sale letter and I still can't figure out what the product is or does - cancel
There is nothing I want bad enough to put up with that crap.
The one I really despise is when you go to the WF (or WTF, as I like to call it) and you say you don't like somebody's "marketing tactic", you get deluged with posts saying you must have nothing better to do than hang out in forums, you are not a real marketer.
No sweat with the dork who mailed 15 times in 3 days, that is not on you, that's what the unsubscribe button is for. Or if you have gmail, the create a filter button.
Thanks for the excellent post.
That dork wouldn't be related to the pair of Asian dorks who sent me the nearly 30 emails within a week all expecting me to pay money to them based on the fact they make a few products that I really can't live without?
So many triggers to make us pull out the credit card. Scaring us into feeling like we will miss some revolution of finances.
Well... I think this is the way it has to be or we need to regulate titles and certificate people laying down a corporative system.
There will be always bad people and nice people in all industries. What happen if all the "I have a secret" gurus start to call themselves "Business Developers"? :D They will keep on talk about #1 position secrets or to have 5 miles sales letters.
Titles doesn't matter. My clients can call me what they want. :D
I guess the most important thing is our character. Our credibility and reputation will follow it - no matter what we call ourselves.
Association would be key here. Managed and audited. I would play ball.
I was waiting for someone to tackle this question. I think you're right in that the term "internet marketer" has swayed to the side of being perceived as some sort of scam artist, even though many of us (including myself) are internet marketers.
I liken the term "internet marketer" to used car salesman. Even though there are some legitimate used car salesman, those that sell us the lemons give the whole name a bad rap.
What other terms do you like for internet marketer besides something like business developer like you've chosen?
Used car salesman is a good analogy. Producer is another good title. :)
Brad. Great video. Thanks for sharing. I think you are smart for moving away from the term internet marketer. Remember, the internet is just a form of media same as print or TV. I think if you have a real business its best to just call your self a marketer, entrepreneur or business owner.
I say business owner first when people ask. Lately when they dig I tell them I own and publish websites.
Thumbfist Point? That's hysterical!
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